Ife Landsmark ‘75

Dartmouth College Oral History Program

Dartmouth Black Lives

October 28, 2022

Transcribed by Molly Rudman ‘23

RUDMAN                  My name is Molly Rudman and I am in Collis Student Center in Hanover, New Hampshire, and I am doing a Their Story interview with Dr. Ife Landsmark who is in Brooklyn, New York. Today is Friday, October 28th, 2022, and this is an interview for the Dartmouth Black Lives Oral History Project.

RUDMAN                  Hello Dr. Landsmark. Thank you so much for joining me today. First, I'd like to hear a little bit about your childhood. Can you please state when and where you were born?

LANDSMARK           I was born in Harlem [NY] and raised in Bed-Stuy [NY]. That's Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. I was raised by a single mom, and there were four of us and we were very poor.

RUDMAN                  Can you tell me the names of your parents?                 

LANDSMARK           I can tell you the name of my mom, her name was Rosanna Isabella O'Garro Landsmark Dickerson. And, any case, we called her Rose and my mother passed away at the age of 98.

RUDMAN                  Oh my goodness. I'm sorry to hear that.

LANDSMARK           Well, she had a great journey.

RUDMAN                  What was it like growing up in Bed-Stuy?            

LANDSMARK           In the beginning, we were hungry. We were on welfare, and I remember peanut butter, dry peas, and cheese. A big block of cheese, and we sliced it. But my mom, who only had a second-grade education, was a hard worker. She worked days work all her life. She cleaned homes in Manhattan for the most part. One of her pride and joys is having worked for Yul Brynner [Russian actor, 1920-85], one of my favorite actors, Magnificent Seven. Anyway, she worked and enrolled us in Catholic elementary school. Went from grade 1 to grade 8, and it was in a more posh neighborhood, and we all had bus passes, which we constantly lost, and we would ride to school. I didn't know until years and years later that St. Peter Claver, the school that I attended, was actually a segregated school in Bedford-Stuyvesant. The school around the corner was huge, it's called Nativity. The children who went there were either fair-skinned, light-skinned, Black children, or other children of color. Both schools, Nativity around the corner, and our little school had uniforms, and were run by nuns, and St. Peter Claver was the school, and there was a church on the corner. So, segregated, in any case, that was my early development. I wasn't very skilled in social interactions, and even with the uniforms, children could tell class differences and I was from the gutter, so it was a lively time for eight years.

RUDMAN                  Thank you for sharing that. So you said there were four of you growing up, so you had three siblings. Were you the oldest? How old were your other siblings?

LANDSMARK           My oldest brother, my hero, he's three years older than I. He was, he passed away.

RUDMAN                  I'm sorry.

LANDSMARK           Then there was me, I'm second in line, and then there were my younger brother and sister. My younger sister was three years younger than me, and her brother was one year younger than she was. So there were four of us, which made great for games. We were what was called latchkey kids. Do you know what that means?

RUDMAN                  I do not.

LANDSMARK           Back in the day, there wasn't daycare. We did have a neighbor looking out for us initially when I was about five or so, but it was loose, and whatever. And so latchkey kids are kids who are given keys and the two eldest, I think I was about nine, and my brother was 12, were responsible for our younger brother and sister going to school, coming home from school, on the weekends, and in the evening until mom got home.

RUDMAN                  What was it like having that level of responsibility?

LANDSMARK           My brother made it fun. My mom gave us tons of work to keep us in our one room, one-bedroom apartment, or really was a rooming house. The bathroom was upstairs, and we had Cookie and Andy downstairs, they were the fire setters, and we had Denise and Deborah upstairs, and they were the bad kids, worse than we were, and other roomers. We had Mary, who was a lady of the night. The responsibility, we did the work, my brother had a song we sang. We did the work right after Mom left the house, and as soon as we saw the corner heading to the subway, we were out of there. We went on many ventures, some in the neighborhood, some far away. This is Cumberland Street, it's on the A Line, we would slide under, get all greasy, slide under. There used to be this turn, a metal turnstile door. We were small enough to scoot under. We'd get on the A Train and ride till we got to the Museum of Natural History, and that was our playground. The dinosaur. We all had our favorite places to go. We split up, but we also played chase. We had the security people at the Museum, there are those kids again, and chase us. It was a fun place. And we did learn, we did learn a lot. So the responsibility back then, we didn't feel the significance of it. We knew we had chores and that we'd get a whoopin if we didn't have everything neat and in place. We usually weren't caught. We got caught once or twice. Mom rounded the corner and came home early and we were outside on the stoop. But for the most part, we had a good time.

RUDMAN                  Very cool. And so you refer to your older brother as a hero. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

LANDSMARK           My mom believed that she couldn't give us a faith. And so, her religion was Anglican and then of course Catholic, and she chose to baptize us as Catholics and to send us to Catholic school. However, she didn't agree with the Catholics that the age of reason was six and so we all had to decide for ourselves what faith. So, she sent us to Seventh-day Adventist, the Jewish synagogue, the mosque, the Baptist, the Methodist, Greek Orthodox, you name it. Holy rollers. And as a consequence, we each chose something different.

LANDSMARK           My older brother. He was the first casualty. He was ahead of me in Catholic school, but he got into a gang war. Not the kind that we have these days, but fists, knuckles, sort of like West Side Story. So there was a Crips and this and that and he got stomped. When he was in seventh grade, he was hospitalized. When released, they, they didn't, they should have held him over and have him repeat most of the year that he lost. Instead, they didn't. He passed, he graduated, but he didn't get to a reputable school. Well, it was reputable, everybody knew about Boys High School back then in Brooklyn. But he became an Imam Muslim eventually. He was in the service but was a conscientious objector to the war. They finally discharged him because he did everything except hold the rifle, fire the rifle. He held it and drilled, but he didn't fire it. He was exceptionally good with languages and with people, and he kept us safe to the extent that he could until he left home early at 16, no at 15, he left home at 15, and had his own Black lives didn't matter back then any more than they did now, and he had some challenges that he fought hard to overcome and served as a role model for me. I mean, I remember him accepting people, sneaky Pete was an alcoholic on the corner, and he'd greet sneaky Pete. What's the word, Thunderbird? That was wine back then. Wine that you turn the cork, turn the top, and he would share wine. If Pete offered him, he wouldn't disrespect him. He modeled the way that he wanted us to deal with the world including Black Power, the Panthers, and so I was part of the Panthers, the breakfast, whatever, back in that. So he was politically astute.

RUDMAN                  And what was, Pete, do you remember Pete's last name?

LANDSMARK           Sneaky Pete? Sneaky Pete was a bum on the corner. I couldn't imagine back then how a person could have a family and they didn't know where he was and he didn't know where they were. Homeless. Sneaky Pete was my first exposure to homeless.

RUDMAN                  And so you mentioned, I think it's really interesting that you and your siblings each chose a different religion. Could you talk a little bit more about the religions of you and your other siblings?

LANDSMARK           My sister remained Catholic. My brother, my younger brother swore he was an atheist. I like them all. I once looked up Catholic with a small C, it means hope and in my travels and all my life, I've gone to whatever church community was available. It's the way I met people. I would be in a strange country or a strange state, and so I've been baptized more times than I can count. Baptized Baptist. Catholic, did take my shahada, but I read the Quran, the Talmud, and The Holy Bible and dabble in other. I'm comfortable, all roads lead to the Creator. So, that's diversity of us.

RUDMAN                  Thank you for sharing that. I'd love to hear about your involvement with the Panthers, and how you first got involved.

LANDSMARK           Well, prior to Black Lives Matter, the Black Panthers. Look, they were two segments of them at that time, but one had a storefront on Nostrand Avenue, and they had a breakfast program [The Free Breakfast for Children Program] and a little thing for the young ones. I was pubescent at that time, and I was also politically aware, had my realizations. Because after elementary school, I went to all-girl Catholic diocesan high school, all-girl, and run by nuns. And I used to think that it was just the old people of the time who weren't, weren't accepting until there were some incidents like Penn State, the March of the Panthers on Washington, the shooting up of that same store on Nostrand Avenue by the cops. And it culminated in a lot of awareness. Even at Bishop McDonnell, my high school, everybody was fine until the Olympics when the three brothers put their fists up, and then everybody wanted the few Blacks that were in the high school to escort them home. Or to explain our nature or whatever.

So I was pretty radical in my viewpoint of how subtle racism could be. I learned, I preferred, the South and places I've lived in the Southwest, because they're much more blatant. They were just more upfront. I thought that was good until Trump, but I didn't like the northern subtle forms of racism, the redlining, which I got involved with after I graduated from high school. You know, places I could not live once they saw who I was. So a lot of us who entered Dartmouth, males and females, were in response to Penn State [1969] and other rioting that was going around. The colleges decided, as did many of them, to increase the number of people of color entering, and I was one.

RUDMAN                  So going back to your high school and your middle school experience, a little more. If you feel comfortable sharing, what subtle or less subtle forms of racism did you encounter most at your Catholic middle schools and high schools?

LANDSMARK           Well, I didn't go to middle school. Elementary school was one to eight. And then high school is from onward until four years, but I can tell you that I left home at sixteen and was on my own and that was out of necessity. And one of my friends, the church I played the guitar for, was a priest and he encouraged me to leave home and he helped me by finding a roommate, a Caucasian girl, in the neighborhood where he grew up and where he was ordained in Brooklyn. We met, I moved in, we were fine. I moved in that middle of the week and that weekend, we went to church. I went to the Catholic Church that she went to, and people wouldn't sit near us. And the priest hesitated about when we went up for communion, no one at the rail. And then the wife of the landlord came upstairs very apologetic. Father John was there, and I, and the girl. And she said, "Look, it's not me, but the neighborhood, they're going to be upset." Either I had to leave or both of us had to leave.

                                    That was blatant, others, I was in looking for an apartment in Brooklyn College area. I saw an ad in a church newsletter, called up, found out a graduate of Bishop McDonald also, and she says, "Come right over." I hopped on the bus, got there. I don't sound, I was told, Black on the phone, but when I got to the door, she looked out. Then to make sure, she said, "Sarah," I was using my Christian name back then. I said yes, and she said, "Oh the apartment is taken." So, redlining, and those kinds of incidences that occurred as well as the government lowering the ratio of immigrants from the West Indies to come back or dilute the African American Black. And there were some subtle advantages for West Indians over Blacks. My mother was West Indian, and I can talk with the best of them. That's how I got housing and I learned about how people can feel threatened if the resources are limited,

RUDMAN                  And so going back, you said you were born in Harlem and then you moved to Bed-Stuy. I just wondering how old you were when you moved to Bed-Stuy.

LANDSMARK           And I was small.

RUDMAN                  You were small, okay.

LANDSMARK           Maybe about four.

RUDMAN                  Okay, so do you remember much of Harlem?

LANDSMARK           Sure, Brooklyn and Manhattan [NY] were our playground. Get on the A Train, A Train goes to the Village, you know NYU [New York University], the Village, West 4th Street, all the way up, the Bronx [NY], Yankee Stadium. Oh actually we had Ebbets Field. The Brooklyn Dodgers were still in Brooklyn. So, Harlem at that time is a poet names Langston Hughes who created a character called Simple and Simple once said "Hey, Harlem's not ours, just ours alone.” At that time in my youth, the brownstones were where people tried to get out of to get to the projects. Now, they're million-dollar homes. And Harlem isn't always just Harlem, but it was a great era sitting on the stoop, listening to the game, on the radio, with the old folks going to the barbershop, hanging with the older men, who barbershop is where they talked. If I went with my uncle who was a boxer, you could sit and listen and learn.

RUDMAN                  And do you remember why you moved from Harlem to Bed-Stuy?

LANDSMARK           I imagine my mom needed a place in Brooklyn that she could afford. She was like I said, an immigrant. She came here after the war. She had some relatives but not many to speak of. So she was a young woman on her own.

RUDMAN                  Transitioning slowly to your experience at Dartmouth, how did you first hear about Dartmouth and decide to apply?

LANDSMARK           I didn't, I didn't hear about Dartmouth. I didn't know anything about Dartmouth. I was told by the nuns at graduation that I wasn't college material and I believed them. So I never applied to college. I didn't know how, whatever, wasn't college material. So, I had a lot of jobs from sixteen on, but I love to read. Sitting on the Hudson River I had a job as a switchboard operator, 555, and I was bored already with it. I had good luck with jobs, I just would get fired or leave one on the Friday and have another one on the Monday. And this was a Friday, I recall, and I was reading sitting on the bench at the river and I just was engrossed in the book. Along came, a gentleman who sat down and commented on the book and we got to discussing the course of the book.

RUDMAN                  Which book was it?

LANDSMARK           Well, I don't remember, something big. I always like to go to the library and choose these tomes that are really large. I think it was nonfiction. But in any case we discussed it, and at the end he gave me his card. He had asked me about myself and I told him I was working, I looked at it. Yeah, I went out for lunch hour, and it was now close to three or something. I knew I was going to get fired. I didn't want the job anyway. He gave me his card and I had shared with him that the nuns said I wasn't college material and he doubted that. He turned out to be a dean of a small, small college that was just starting. It's huge now, but it was called York College and it's in Queens [NY] and he gave me his card and he said, "Why don't you come and check it out?" There's a program because everybody was trying to avoid the draft and so the thing to do was to be in school so that you didn't have to – either that or run to Canada. So, he was a dean and he told me the program and he said I could just go in and get tested, whatever. School had already started; I think this was October or something of that year. And so I went, I didn't have anything else to do. I took the test, didn't need any remedial work, and the dean, I got accepted. And I took to school like a dog to water. I loved it, I loved every class. But I discovered some classes that were special to me, literature was special, biology was special, and psychology was special. And when I discovered that there was a career that did what I had done all my life which is listen to people, listen to what they don't say. I wonder why certain actions by humanity was being taken or not. I found out that there was a core subject called psychology, do that. Ate it up.

                                    And there was a teacher because back in those days, again, it wasn't large campus or anything. Some of it was portable or up through the mud. Yeah, whatever. Take the bus to get from one class to another. The teachers were very personable and one of them, her name was Dr. Swadesh Grant, and she was my first psychology professor and was my mentor all through my time at York and she was married to a Dartmouth alumnus.

                                    So, I was sailing along taking classes summer, winter, it didn't matter. And that's the summer I was turning eighteen, I think I had had two years, was going into my second year of the semester, but it was the summer. I was taking summer courses and I got assaulted and mugged and it took a while for recovery. So, I didn't go into school that summer. I dropped everything. In the end, I decided to go back. Dr. Grant caught up with me the very day I arrived to register, and we sat in a restaurant. She bought me coffee and she said, "It's not like you to, you dropped out of everything for the summer." So I told her what happened, and she was horrified. Swadesh is from East India and her husband he was red-blooded American, red-haired. They didn't tell me anything. She just was concerned that I was so young living on my own and in danger of the radical stuff. And also the assault and mugging at gunpoint.

                                    So, she and her husband, they heard, they knew that Dartmouth was turning co-ed, and needing to fill out the female population. They filled out the application for me. I didn't know. They had all the information, whatever. And later that fall, they told me that I've been accepted with a full scholarship to Dartmouth. I didn't know Dartmouth, I knew NYU, but I didn't know Ivy League or any of that stuff, but I was interested. Okay, so I am college material. I'm straight A so far. But what would it have been like if I went to a real college? College college, you know. And they wanted me to be safe. 

                                    So, the priest and deaconess, they had a Land Rover and they packed me up, and they drove me to Dartmouth. We took two days to get there, we camped out and I got to Dartmouth and it was cold. It was muddy. I saw the camp, and they were building the tiers. It was the strangest thing. They dropped me off at Dartmouth Hall. I went in and this keg came rolling down the stairs and smashed. That dorm smelled like beer for months. New Hampshire Hall wasn't very happy, had been designated as a co-ed. I think it was some sort of punishment for something they had done. So that's where I was. And that's how I found out about Dartmouth.

RUDMAN                  Very interesting. Quickly, do you remember the name of the dean of York College who sat next to you on the bench while you were reading that day?

LANDSMARK           Hmm, names are, I have name agnosia. I don't even remember my own name sometimes, but I can, I can look it up. I I see his face. I don't off hand remember his name.

RUDMAN                  Yeah, no worries. I'm curious about how, how did your family respond to your decision to come to Dartmouth, what were their reactions?

LANDSMARK           My mother and I were estranged, at that point, because of her paramour. The family had scattered. My kid sister and brother, they remained at home, and they didn't escape until much later from the brutalities of poverty and so forth. My older brother was in a Muslim community in Bushwick [NY]. We talk from time to time. I tried to support my younger brother and sister while I was away. The WATS [Wide Area Telephone Service] line helped at Dartmouth. My brother was busy traveling, he, and making babies. I have eleven nephews and one niece from my older brother and one of them, she's from Sudan. So, I mean, the family was scattered, so there was no real response.

RUDMAN                  Do you remember either on your ride to Dartmouth, or when you were first arriving or when you first got there, was there anything that you were most nervous about or most apprehensive for?

LANDSMARK           I wasn't apprehensive. I'm an observer and I take things in. I had been assigned a quad, there were two roommates. One was a tall, Swedish blonde from the New England area, she loved the breeze and the cold. And she would open the windows. The other was a little short young lady who played basketball and was from the South. I remember that my first event, we were lugging things up the staircase and into the room I’d been assigned and along came the southern family. The mother took one look at me and went rushing out. She went down to the housing to demand changes and, of course, the college responded by, as they did now. My grandson is going to St. John's and his mother went in because he had roommates, and they were slobs, and they listen to music and same thing.

                                    So, I watched the unpacking of people as they arrived at Dartmouth. Parents who lingered with the station buff and putting everything away and some families had bought furniture to furnish the place. In other instances like mine, Father John and the deaconess, they left. They had to go back; it was a long trip. I watch families. I watched, I looked around and mostly I was cold. I couldn't. There's no spring. There's mud. There's no fall, really. There's mud. It's cold. And I'm watching these hunks on the campus lawn, and they're wearing t-shirts and I was inside lickety-split. The cold was the hard part for me of Dartmouth at first.

RUDMAN                  And you mentioned living in New Hamp Hall, I currently live in Topliff, which is next to New Hamp, but did you live in New Hamp? Well, I guess my first question is were you at Dartmouth for four years and did you live in New Hamp for all those four years or did live somewhere else?

LANDSMARK           Oh no, I didn't live in New Hamp. The requirement for me was well, Dartmouth doesn't, I learned, to own the credits of other colleges, you know. And so I had to repeat, which I didn't mind. Five years didn't matter to me, I just love studying and being at school. So I lost track of your question. I know that New Hamp and the dorm next door, they had a running battle. I don't know if they still have it, but they had a running battle going. But, you know, after my first semester, the, those who had been transitioned in were allowed to live in other dorms, and I lived in other dorms, solo. 

RUDMAN                  And so you only had roommates your first year?

LANDSMARK           Yes.

RUDMAN                  Okay.

LANDSMARK           And got caught between them, Heather would open the window and the other would close the window, you know. They were two very extreme young women.

RUDMAN                  And how would you say your high school prepared you for Dartmouth in terms of like academics or socially?

LANDSMARK           Socially, I was on my own. High school and elementary didn't prepare me at all. And certainly not my antecedents, the growing up thing. So that was not, that was something to learn on my own, as did many of the ten percent of us that were admitted. Ten percent men and women of color, including Native Americans, and I can't remember, but I know it was a very small percentage that graduated.

RUDMAN                  In terms of academics, so I was looking at the 1975 yearbook, and so I see that you majored in psychology, though feel free to correct me if that's incorrect.

LANDSMARK           I had several majors.

RUDMAN                  Okay, what were your other majors?

LANDSMARK           I minored in biology and psychology and I was a senior fellow so I could take anything.

RUDMAN                  Oh I'm not too familiar with the senior fellow position. Can you explain that?

LANDSMARK           Maybe they don't have it anymore. Back, there was, what's his name, the governor. There were, it was a governor of New York whose sons went to Dartmouth. One of the sons went to Africa and got lost. [Michael Rockefeller disappeared 1961 in Papua New Guinea]. A scholarship was established in his name and it was called the senior fellowship. And what it allowed for was for a year, you could study anything you wanted. You could take any classes on campus you wanted, and you had to do a thesis and wherever that research took you. So I had the full scholarship already but then I earned the senior fellowship. I applied for the senior fellowship the first semester I was there because I learned that there had never been a female. Of course, it had been male all this time. They had never had a female senior fellow. So, I wrote quickly a thesis topic and it got approved and I became a senior fellow. That meant automatic A [grades] once I became a senior fellow. So I would take whatever classes I wanted on campus, and just for the interest of studying. I remember my office was in Baker [Library]. The senior fellow offices are up there. They should still be there. Eventually, my thesis took me to Europe and Africa.

RUDMAN                  What was your research question? What were you investigating in your thesis?

LANDSMARK           The separation of people. The inclination of people to, I started with the cafeteria at Dartmouth, and the fact that there was this whole intent to mix genders and cultures at Dartmouth. Lots of different ways of trying to meld people. But when you went to the cafeteria, the groups were self-segregated, the football team, and by race. And I was interested in that behavior. And how far did it go? Did it go south? Did it go to Europe? Was it in Africa? Frankly, I wrote the presentation of it, it got accepted, but I really didn't write until I got back. When I arrived back at Dick's House. I had Pityriasis rosea, a skin infection, and I had to be in this rubber suit and I wrote my thesis while I was in Dick's House.

RUDMAN                  Wow. And do remember what some of you your most notable findings were after your trip to Africa and Europe?

LANDSMARK           It wasn't so much the findings; it was the journey along the way. Including well, one of the things that came out of it and I once spoke to someone from Dartmouth, a woman, and she told me that the newspaper is still alive. I created the newspaper called the Black Praxis and then jerry-rigged a team. We worked out of the Afro-Am, a lot and it was to vie with the D. Also, I discovered the John Birch Society that first fall when they were burning. Every year, you have those tires, and they were building them and it's a big thing and so a lot of alumni come to campus and they, these old timers in these old cars. They came from Maine and so forth. 

And I learned more about disparities and harshness. I was struck by not only the isolation of people into groups but also the undercurrent of not getting the person, whether it be Native Americans or whatever, and how many suicides were occurring in my tenure at Dartmouth. There were an awful lot, awful, awful lot, and most of it was not — in fact, NYU all of them were having death — but it was not being mentioned in terms of reputation of the college. And then there were, I don't know whether you still have trimesters?

RUDMAN                  Yes, yes.

LANDSMARK           That's a great deal of pressure, rather than two semesters, you know. And there was not the kind of guidance that many students needed to not double up on difficult courses. So an awful lot got sent down or, you know, try to go to another college in the interim and then come back, but then would come back and their credits would not be accepted. So, there was a lot of fallout and mostly, it was from the kids, the ABC program [A Better Chance Program], the kids who didn't have family members with college experience, application experience, study experience and so forth.

RUDMAN                  And how would you describe the mental health resources, or lack thereof, available to Dartmouth students while you were there?

LANDSMARK           There weren't. It wasn't like it has gotten to be now with most campuses where you're aware of the molestation or harassment of women. They didn't know that. The distress of women who had gone to a frat party or whatever was not well received. I remember encountering a sobbing girl at the Hinman boxes. Hinman, is that the name of the mailbox?

RUDMAN                  Yes, yes.

LANDSMARK           She'd been raped—but the police—particularly women's issues, we were outnumbered. I guess just like all young people, you go to college with a certain goal in mind. There were a whole batch of these women who came to get a degree. M-R-S. And then you had the people from the schools nearby. So, the undercurrents of hometown honey, and Holyoke, when they came. And then the women who were there. Those who came, those women whose parents were alumni or had family who were alumni, they also had other characteristics like fair-skinned, good hair. As opposed to those kids from the inner city. Some of them came up with the ABC program [A Better Chance Program] and then merged into. So, was a mishmash of ideologies, hurts, pains, misperceptions, and the town wasn't even ready for it.

                                    I mean, I remember trying to find grease. I remember being in the philosophy class was where the whole thing seemed to be that the whole point of Dartmouth was to produce a cosmopolitan entity capable of doing business. And so, the students, many of them were like, “What do you mean ashy? And what about that hair?” You know, and it was really, I felt, sometimes, we were being studied, not understood. They had no idea. They have no afro picks; they had no grease.

I had a nose ring that I had before I came to Dartmouth and I took it out too early, and I was very upset. I couldn't get it back in. So I went to Dick's House. The doctor there, he's listening to me, he has a pad. I think he's writing. I'm telling him, “I just want it back in, I can't get the straw in.” He’s like “Uh-huh” and “Uh-huh.” At some point, he was like, “But why do a hole in your nose?” And then he was like, “Well, let me see, let me examine,” and he put down what he was writing. What he had on his pad was a profile of a head, of a female head, and an X where he was documenting this crazy girl who had a hole in her nose. I wanted him to keep it open. So, there was a lot of unpreparedness on the part of the town, on the part of the teachers, part of the students—certainly I didn't—sight unseen. So there was a lot of thrashing about.

RUDMAN                  And how, how would you say you engaged most with the Black community at Dartmouth? Or what opportunities were there to engage with that community?

LANDSMARK           For the most part, the kids from the inner city, and some of the rural areas that had been involved in protesting, the activists for the war for whatever the issue was. We learned to congregate at the Afro-Am. There was a dean. Nels [Nelson Armstrong ‘71], Nels was his name. He saved so many of the guys and girls in terms of advising them and so forth. They were other teachers because those of us who came in were older. You say you're a junior now and you're 23?

RUDMAN                  I'm 21 and I am a senior. 

LANDSMARK           21 and a senior. I repeated and then I didn’t go to school at sixteen when I graduated. So, a bunch of us, some of the men were pulled in from wherever, Philadelphia [PA] I remember, because they were athletes, and they formed the defense. So the Black men were defense. Nobody was on. Nobody was a star. No, that's not quite true. There is one star that was there my year, but even he was a target. Do you know what I mean by target? Like I said, some of the women came to get a degree in M-R-S. I overheard one day, I was in the dorm, women Caucasian talking, and they were speaking. One girl said to the other one, “Well, I want…” There were two twins on the football team, I'm not gonna mention names for confidentiality. So, one girl says, “Well, I want so-and-so last name,” and the other girl said to her, "Which one?" And she said, "Oh, it doesn't matter, either one." Because they were both football [players], and they were Black and there was a curiosity. So, the Black men on campus were being chased. The upper-class Black men were now choosing among the new coming in, plus the Holyoke girl. And so a lot of doubt for young people who weren't prepared for it and it was first time I heard women talking about men as an object. “Oh I don't care, whichever one, I want one.

                                    On the other hand, the Black women at Dartmouth were in various groups like I said. It depended on class, but nobody was talking about class. They only spoke about the race or the ethnicity of a person, but class had a great deal to do with how things shook out and the Black darker women were not as desirable to the Black men and, you know, new meat or whatever. And so there was tension between Black women, or women of color, Hispanic women, and the white girls who were coming in, they had cars and means, and they would come on weekends and they would be this whole big shuffle and I watched them. It's very interesting.

RUDMAN                  And so you mentioned the ABC program. I'd love to hear a little bit about your involvement with the ABC program. According to the [1975 Aegis] yearbook, it said you were a tutor. Is that correct?

LANDSMARK           Yes.  One of the teachers there and her husband, they were involved, and they needed babysitters. They lived off campus in the house. One guy that I was going with was a football player, but he had come into Dartmouth through the ABC program. Now with Dartmouth, I think he was class of '74 maybe. We tutored, we babysat. It was a way to get off campus. Didn't have cars, so you know. For some of us, we didn't have homes. When there was Easter or Thanksgiving, we remained on campus for the most part. The inner-city kids kind of had a tighter connection because of their politics and also because many of them came from impoverished homes that didn't send care packages, and that you didn't fly home to Seattle [WA] for a holiday weekend.

RUDMAN                  And as a tutor, what were you responsible for teaching or like what type of tutoring?

LANDSMARK           Literature, I loved literature and sometimes just listening. They were eager, young. Many of them needed remedial help. It turns out I've always been pulled to the bad girls and boys. I've always worked with adolescents, no matter what other population I work with. I always work with the ones that are throwaway kids. They're not expected to survive or do well. I find them brothers and sisters in spirit and I can identify. So, it would be listening to whatever.

RUDMAN                  And so in regard to Black power and racial inequality, I've read that Dartmouth, unlike peer institutions, other Ivy League schools, did not have as many rebellions or protests, and so I was just wondering what the climate on Dartmouth's campus was like in terms of protests?

LANDSMARK           We didn't have, we didn't have anything near what some of the other known named colleges like Penn State was having. I think that's because of the foresight of [John Sloan] Dickey [Dartmouth President, 1945-1970]. I forget who, but I think they made an effort to open up the campus. But then, they made a real effort to monitor and get rid of troublemakers. Too radical. Too outspoken. You know, regardless of the ethnicity. I remember there was a Native American young man. He was in the forefront of, you know, remember we had the Dartmouth symbols, and they were Native American. In fact, I never knew until I met him that Dartmouth was a Native American school. Yet, they were less than 10% and he objected to the Dartmouth symbol of the time. He made a big, big stink, one way or another and he was gone, he was gone. So, I think yes, they did not have the kind of uprising and whatever and I think it was because we were too few. We had too little power. We would voice complaints but there weren't enough of us complaining. There were many more African Americans there, and Latinos there who were of a different class and knew how to meld smoother.

RUDMAN                  And so circling back to co-education a little bit, I think it's really interesting that you were one of the first female senior fellows and I'm interested in…

LANDSMARK           I'm the first, not one of the first. They only had one that year. Me.

RUDMAN                  Wow, that's super impressive. That's really, really cool.

LANDSMARK           Yeah, I dug it too. Just because if you say no women, I'm going to be the, I'm going to go, you know.

RUDMAN                  That's awesome. I guess how else or how was it being in class with other male students? Like how were women treated in an academic classroom setting?

LANDSMARK           In class? Everybody was pretty okay. I think it was outside of class that, you know, the boys weren't socialized, particularly at Dartmouth. And it was pretty superficial, hurtful, you know, teen young adult stuff. I stayed clear of it, but I felt superior because I was older, see. And so were some of the others. The guy I was going with was older too and he was part of the ABC program and football team and Afro-Am. So, a few of us didn't get caught up in the [pause]. I mean, even back then the fraternities were hotbeds of bad behavior. And White River Junction [VT] was just over the bridge to go get alcohol, so things like that, I don't think were addressed. But there was so few of them and the journey through Dartmouth was so difficult academically that those who were messing up were quickly gone.

RUDMAN                  And I would like to learn a little but more about, you mentioned fraternities, what was the social life like at Dartmouth? Particularly on the weekends?

LANDSMARK           I really wasn't a participant. I never went to a frat party. I didn't join a sorority until graduate school. So, I'm a late bloomer, but I walk the campus and I had things I did that we're solo or maybe a group of one or two, and in that traveling, I would go past the frat houses. You’d hear the partying. You'd see the cars because a lot of the female schools, or Boston [MA], or Holyoke [MA], you know, all of those. They came. They had mobility and they would stay the weekend so there'd be a holy mess on the weekend. Both too much beer, too much drinking, but also like arguments or fights over—a girl would stay over, and they had ways of putting things on the doorknob to say—there’s a lot of shuffling and whatever. I think at the AAm, we had dances. I mean, down in the basement, they used to have this blue light. I remember one time we were slow dancing, and it was dark and then somebody opened the window. We were all there until somebody noticed in the open window was a skunk. You never saw a bunch of [laughter]. We froze, nobody moved. Yeah, there was parties in the AAm and there were political discussions. Be it resolved. We had a board and we had issues that would come up. As a newspaper for the community, the Black Praxis, there were issues that I would report on or so forth, and so on.

RUDMAN                  And what issues do you remember reporting on the most or what issues did you write about?

LANDSMARK           I don't remember now. I have a couple of newspapers I've kept over the years. I was going to go in the file cabinet and look for them, but I got distracted by something else, and I didn't do that for you. But like I said, I spoke to someone a few years ago, and learned that the Praxis was still active, that there was still a newspaper and I said it felt like I gave birth to a baby and it's still there all these many years later. And I asked the young lady, did she know what praxis meant? She didn't, she didn't know what the word meant, so times change. But I went to a thing here in New York for Dartmouth women and it was just one or two in my age group, and they were asking us about the good old days, but it was amazing. It was a long table in Manhattan, and all these women. It was so amazing to see how we've multiplied. It's not ten to one or nine to one now. You have a pretty balanced campus, and from what I see from the magazine, we've made, as females, we've made strides over the years. So, it's entirely different and I was impressed.

RUDMAN                  I'm curious what kind of physical spaces did you spend the most time in at Dartmouth or, which spaces did you feel most comfortable in?

LANDSMARK           I loved the [Baker-Berry] library and then the tower [The Tower Room in Baker Library], the [Jose Clemente] Orozco paintings. I spent time there. I would spend time in the senior fellow room I was assigned. Great place to look out and whatever. I'm impressed with, I haven't been up there, but the new campus, that's amazing. I spent a lot of time at the medical center. There was a doctor there I worked for. His name was Dr. Peter Hauri and he's a renowned doctor whose research and practice is in sleep disturbances and insomnia. I would work the night shift and it was really a nice setup. The individual, the patient, would come to the setting, and it would look like a bedroom. But through the board, all the electrodes, which we would hook up, would go through the board and into this room where I was, and I monitored the ink and the machine and the sleep pattern through the night. And then I land at the cafeteria going to classes in the morning. So, I worked nights, and the other place I hung out was the WDCR [The Dartmouth College Radio Station].

RUDMAN                  Oh yeah, I saw in the 1975 yearbook that you were a DJ with the radio.

LANDSMARK           Yeah, one of the things that was hard to do was study. You had to study all the time, trimester. One of the things we did for comfort is we had we had access to WDCR at night. When students are, you know, you need mellow music to listen to, and while you are booked. So, we did that. I also liked, at that time, computers were nothing like they are now, but we had the SPSS and these huge machines. It wasn't a little thumb intel; it was these huge machines. Research was important to me, so library, and I was just beginning to get the technology of the SPSS. Yeah, those are places I hung out.

RUDMAN                  And you said you were doing research with sleep insomnia, was that at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center?

LANDSMARK           Yeah.

RUDMAN                  Yeah. Okay. Very cool.

LANDSMARK           Hitchcock, that was the name. Yeah, Hitchcock.

RUDMAN                  And I'm curious, we talked a little bit about the three-semester schedule at Dartmouth, which I know is very fast paced and challenging. I'm curious, what did you encounter in terms of academic challenges or challenges with courses on campus?

LANDSMARK           The most amazing thing was discovering that there wasn't a difference. Remember, that was my initial self-question in going. There were excellent teachers at York. I found excellent teachers at Dartmouth. Granted York probably would not have given me the exposure to the world as Dartmouth did, nor would it have assisted in any way. My grades would, but the name of the college, York would not have. But in essence, learning is learning, and those schools, you have, and I've experienced it over the years, because I've taught now undergraduate and graduate, and there are excellent adjuncts, and first, out-of-the-box teachers, and their teachers have been there since God created the Earth, and they're awful. And so, it's luck of the draw. The kind of learning experience you have in any academic class at Dartmouth or at York. The quality of the teachers I found no discernible difference. There were good and there were bad.

I wish I had been more of a joiner. I think that I was the victim of the very thing I was studying, because my perceptions and areas of interest, whatever, I think in the end kept me from joining things that I thought were over the top, like a fraternity or sorority, at that time. I've come to understand the value of that kind of networking, that kind of sharing, but I didn't learn it at Dartmouth.

RUDMAN                  And going back, I was looking at the 1975 yearbook, specifically the psychology department, and I noticed that I think there was one female psychology professor, and the rest were all male. And so, I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the demographics of the professors, in the psychology department, or guess the biology department?

LANDSMARK           Well, it wouldn't have been that, I forget what department he was with, but I do have a story about the male teachers. The paternalistic approach to women wasn't just the students, it was also the teachers. And there was a call, I wanted to go, my studies at that time, I knew I wanted to end up in Africa, but I didn't want to go alone. I'd never been on an airplane before.

So, there was a student class that was going to, they take a class that semester and then they go abroad. So, it's an abroad. And it was made up of, it was co-ed, and this group was going to be the first co-ed group abroad. And it was run by this professor, who is Muslim, but he distinguished himself. I remember walking into class, he was not African, see, he was Northern and there's a distinction. He was not a Moor, he was not. Okay, so we're all sitting in there and he's the teacher that's going to go on the trip. So, he's laying down some of the rules and the culture and whatever. Somewhere in the process he picked up that I knew a little bit of Arabic and after, and then he found out about my brother and then he began pursuing this whole thing of my Shahada. He speaking to the female students in the class in terms of what they must not, must not, must not. And there were strictures that as a northern African man, he, you know, the Sudan and the northern region, they have a different approach to women, you know, covering and this and that. So, he was laying out, before we even left, that the boys could do this and the girls could do this. And I knew there was going to be a problem, but the problem began with him and me in the classroom because the men could be questioning or assertive but not the females. The females in that room were strong women, Black and white. But they catered because they wanted to go on the trip. In the end, he and I got into it, and the College said I can go, but not with them. Thank God. Because that was the trip from hell for the first trip. It was not successful. There were incidences in Africa, not when I was with them. I wasn't with him at all. I went to one country while they went to another, and when they left that country, then I would go. But the girls in the group, some got sent home early, there was a whole big to do and it had to do with the difference between how this professor perceived the role of women and the role of men. Now I thought that was out there, not blatant. But it turned out that as I then saw that, I picked it up in other classes that I audited.

There was one in which the I was always interested in mechanical, and this was a class predominantly men and it was a physics. And there were a few women in there. When I began the audit, I couldn't understand why—would be right there, and I would see them, they’d know the answer—but they wouldn't raise or assert. I'd been in study groups with them, and then I realized that it was learned behavior because the professor would see their tentative little hand. It’s like you're only taking this course because somebody said to. You're not going to really be an engineer or something. It was a paternalistic pat on the head kind of way, and I remember there was this big meeting at the church. What was that church? Sometimes on campus they had a campus meeting, it was at a church or was it a church? Yeah, was a church, a big hall, somebody's hall, but I remember the president speaking and talking about diversity. It was a quelling speech; I think something had gone down that he wanted to settle. I know we had a big meeting in the church about it. I don't remember the details. It's been a long time.

RUDMAN                  I'm curious about, so obviously the Vietnam War was going on during this time frame and I'm curious what conversations were like on campus in regard to the Vietnam War?

LANDSMARK           Very little. I mean, we certainly talked about it in the AAm, but it was as if Dartmouth had been removed. So isolated, we had the winter carnivals and all this in-house on-campus thing. Many of the students didn't have cars. Many of them didn't go running to Boston. They didn't have that kind of leeway. It was very insular. I don't recall current events filtering through campus. I recall, instead, my trying to read the competing newspapers and their positions and then kind of trying to come up with an alternative or an editorial view. But I can't remember a single time when the war in Vietnam—even in watching TV, there was a night that everybody, they even other people came to the AAm to watch, what was it? All those shows—one after the other. “Movin’ On Up” [The Jeffersons theme song], what was that? I forget. “To the east side” [a lyric from The Jeffersons theme song], it was all Black shows, comedy, sitcoms, and it was one after the other. The one with the guy, what's his name? Carroll [Carroll O’Connor played lead character Archie Bunker], the one who was the bigot and his son and daughter. [All in the Family, 1971-79] And the little wife, what was her name? With the voice, you know. [Edith, played by Jean Stapleton] Everybody looked at it, but it was a sardonic look at prejudice because that was Archie Bunker. Yeah, sardonic, but we weren't a part of it, you know. I mean current events was not an issue.

RUDMAN                  And you brought up Winter Carnival, which kind of dovetails nicely into my next question. I'm curious, which traditions were most memorable or which Dartmouth traditions you participated in most, if any, while you were here?

LANDSMARK           The ice sculptures, they were phenomenal. I was just so and I loved the performances, You know, the drama and the I remember with Marvin Gaye came. Marvin Gaye gave a concert at Dartmouth. Oh boy. I think the arts were well presented and expanding, and the Winter Carnival. It was the one time I would endure coming out in the winter to look at the sculptures or to participate in some small way. That was fun. Oh, and I like the going down. I like the fact that Dartmouth had such land, you know, you go down to the water, and the boathouse. And I also like the fact that people were crazy. Like you know, we used to rappel down the Baker [Library]Tower.

RUDMAN                  Wow.

LANDSMARK           Yeah, you know, down. But it was rugged, and if you were something of a tomboy as a girl, they were so many sports to enjoy, you know? And going down to the boathouse was a good spot.

RUDMAN                  And did you feel like women were included in these sports or did you feel like—

LANDSMARK           They made it. In the beginning, they were the accessory to whatever the event was. They were going with the guy, you know, the football. They didn't have too many, like a rowing team. It just wasn't enough of us to form any kind of cohesive "We all like this and we're gonna form a club." That came later.

RUDMAN                  Interesting. I'd like to transition a little bit into hearing about your life after Dartmouth. I understand that you're a licensed clinical psychologist and so I'd love to hear a little bit about what influenced you to pursue that career and how Dartmouth may have prepared you for it?

LANDSMARK           I always liked psychology and I always thought I was surprised to find it's so understandable and then I was good at it. But I also like law. I also like med school. So, in the end, I applied for all of them.

RUDMAN                  Interesting.

LANDSMARK           And got into all of them.

RUDMAN                  Really.

LANDSMARK           So, that didn't help me make my decision. But I chose Columbia, and it was the same experience but better because I'm a city girl at heart. Getting around Columbia and working. Once I got there that first year, you work in the field while you're studying and so things just began to click. But I wanted a broader—I regretted not having gone to a southern college because of some of the things that I learned later that they had an opportunity for that Dartmouth didn't provide. Being interested in Howard or some of the southern colleges and some of the southern ways of healing. And some of the other cultural ways. I wanted to pursue a PhD, but I wanted other degrees as well. So, I went after that. I still loved school and so I worked at all the hospitals, many of the hospitals in New York, Bellevue Hospital, whatever. But I went deliberately south for training because that's behavioral, and I really did believe in the eclectic. And when I went to Africa, back, the healers there were shamans. When I went to South America, again, espirtista. There are many ways to heal, and I became thoroughly caught up in that. But at the same time, I like teaching. So, I taught undergraduate at various colleges and also graduate school. The College of New Rochelle or Columbia, you know. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

I like the court. I was able to combine law by going into forensics. I'm certified, or I was, in all of the districts for New York as an expert witness. I understand like I said the throwaway kids and so I worked a lot with juvenile delinquents or kids with PINS [Persons in Need of Supervision] petitions. I ran a residential treatment center and a residential treatment facility. Yeah, so I've enjoyed the diversity of the degree. I've learned something of class changes because I identify with the gutter, but I certainly have experiences that are much more posh. How to eat with various utensils, how to be the only Black woman on the professional staff of a southern hospital, how to not self-segregate. And here we are. I think of the election coming up and we learn and then we need to relearn. I've looked at the Dartmouth [Alumni] Magazine. I see people who graduated way after I have, but who are stars from Dartmouth—in the world, politically, architecturally—and many are women—and I'm so proud. But I think they are doing it better. I think the College is finally catching on and doing gender better from what I hear.

RUDMAN                  What other current impressions do you have of Dartmouth College?

LANDSMARK           Hmm?

RUDMAN                  What other current impressions do you have of Dartmouth?

LANDSMARK           I think when I went there one reunion, and I was so struck by the amount of money. I was listening to parents who were my class but had now had their children applying or attending Dartmouth and I couldn't believe it; I couldn't believe the debt. I feel so blessed because there was a time on the Kennedy, another, where we had a shot at not being so indebted. It wasn't so expensive. And I listen to my peers talking about their children. So that's astonishing to me [pause]. I've just been impressed and worried about the problems that still have not been resolved for Dartmouth.

RUDMAN                  And which problems are of most importance to you?

LANDSMARK           Well, according to the Dartmouth [Alumni] Magazine, I don't know politically where Dartmouth is going to fall in terms of the environment. I think I'm worried because it seems like the trustees are detached from what it is like today, maybe. I can see that happening. I can see being stuck in the view of Dartmouth when I was there and not appreciating that there are some ways of operating that need to change. Well, we'll see.

RUDMAN                  I'd love to hear a little bit more about your work as an expert witness.

LANDSMARK           I would work for either the defense or the prosecution, or sometimes I'm called in by the court. I did transfer cases, that's with adolescents who have committed or are charged with committing a crime and who need to be assessed by the court, by everybody, before they go on trial for whatever the crime is. There has to be a determination whether they're to be tried as an adult. That’s a pet peeve of mine, you know. Fourteen-year-old, fifteen-year-old does something, it's indeed wrong, maybe murder. But it's not a simple matter of right and wrong. Anyway, so I would go into like the holding here is Rikers. But I've worked in Suffolk County [NY] and Nassau County [NY] are like incredibly because the kids are younger, and they are much more independent in that rural semi suburban. And the ones that get into difficulty are like, I call them ankle-biters. So, determining whether someone should be tried as an adult, determining whether or not remediation is a viable option. Sometimes I've worked with the sexually abused, some famous cases, where, you know, a little girl is known and renowned and whatever.

I was away out of the country, but I came back in time for – it was a Crown Heights [NY] incident [1991] in which a young Black boy [Gavin Cato] was killed by the vehicle of a Jewish rabbi. A Jewish ambulance came and whisked off the rabbi, but the little boy was under the car until the New York, and there was a riot. A young man, fourteen years old at the time, was accused of stabbing a Jewish student, Yankel Rosenbaum. He was found guilty on the first case, which I was not a part of. I came back for the second case and was pulled on board.

Yeah, so I found the juxtaposition of rule of law and what we understand about the human being and its development to be fascinating and to argue sometimes against inclination of society, has always been. I have worked with perps but I'm not very good at it. I'm more inclined to work with families that have battering or whatever. And to teach that. Teaching is different though because it's more academic and cognitive and I like making the students think and I'm funny as a teacher I used to be anyway before they had these portals, and other ways. I like the good old-fashioned Blackboard and pop quizzes and stuff like that. Anyway, but it's been nice to be able to meld certain interests that generalize like when I worked in the inpatient hospital on the emergency ward. They needed someone to come down to manage someone who was truly anxious out of control, whatever. So, pull down the psychologist for hypnosis and lowering anxiety, and finding that one thing that will work with that individual has always been exciting.

RUDMAN                  And what was it like working in residential treatment centers?

LANDSMARK           I've done it a number of times. But Wayside is my favorite because that was early on and it followed the lead of a guy named Minuchin who had a program out West, but it's a team approach and this is a 24-hour campus. It was on acres of land. Each girl, each of the girls had cottages. The Board of Education was on campus, and I made sure to hire staff who were like sisters to the kids barely old. There was a woman named Miss Ella I hired. She never told truth about her age, but she was way past sixty. The kids’ grandma. Making that community of workers and girls, and many of them survived. They are all women now, the ones who survived. They stay in touch. The staff stays in touch and that was more than, that was in the 80s. And the girls have had girls. But it was wonderful Camelot kind of community and I love leading it. I went undercover with the police—it was a very prosperous about six years I ran.

I liked inpatient. I worked inpatient down in the South on a locked unit. The sounds at night that people in distress make. It's never quiet all night on a ward. Someone calling for God and someone calling—it's been very flexible and seeing healers and other countries and their approaches makes it sometimes helpful when Latina is saying "I saw my..." and they're thinking she's hallucinating because the person she saw is not there. And it's not that, it’s her culture. I hear them they're getting ready to have the Haldol and saying, "So you talk to your nana, and she was right there sitting at the foot of the bed?" And they're about ready to jam. And I'm like, "No, no, no. Hold up, hold up, hold up."

It's been a rewarding career that Dartmouth enabled me to have. It was nothing near what the nuns in high school predicted for me and nothing I predicted for myself. And with those two buildings and that understanding I was able to heal some of the pain in my own family. I think I wrote a piece for Dartmouth a while back. That was in the Dartmouth [Alumni] Magazine, I forget the topic of it. I remember people since leaving Dartmouth like this gentleman whose mother lived in my building and he's Dartmouth. And so, whenever he comes down, we manage to get off to the side to drink beer and wear our Dartmouth green hat, you know? Yeah, and, and to compare notes. He was there before my time, like, but he's a good egg. I would see someone wearing a Dartmouth t-shirt and I will go, "Are you from Dartmouth?" Only once was it someone who had bought it in the store, but other than that, it's good when I see a D. And I just got an acknowledgement. I got a medal from BADA [Black Alumni of Dartmouth Association], you know BADA?

RUDMAN                  Yes, yes.

LANDSMARK           Okay. I got a medal for courage from them. It was our 50^th. I didn't go to the 50th. I was in the hospital. But they sent me. It's so beautiful.

RUDMAN                  That's awesome. That's so cool. Well, I want to be conscientious of time, but is there anything else you would like to share?

LANDSMARK           Nels Armstrong [‘71], that was his name. I would like to know if anybody has heard or knows more about him. He was a wonderful guiding light for us kids. At that time, even though I was older, I was still a kid, and he had the wisdom in a soft tap way. Nels Armstrong, I think his name was. I had kept in touch with him, but I lost touch over time. I'd like to know what happened to him.

RUDMAN                  Yeah.

LANDSMARK           Sometimes when the [Dartmouth Alumni] Magazine comes, what I find myself doing now, is, before I read the articles, I go to the class news, and I look at the bold print to see who has sent in the class news and then I turn to the obit. Now I go to the obit before I go to the real estate section back there. I go to the obit and I'm struck by the transition, the passage of time. I just saw that a professor that was very dear to many people has just passed. I guess I'm aware of the passage of time and yet impressed the Dartmouth has been there. It hasn't been perfect place and its mission statement with the Native Americans has yet to be completed. There are issues with the tribes in New England that I wish could finally treaties be resolved and owned. But still, Dartmouth has been there. It hasn't, that tower, Baker, it has a symbol of what it wanted to be and what maybe it could still be if New Hampshire can get its act together. What is this, who they're going to vote for in New Hampshire? I mean, I don't know, but we'll see. I used to love the drive from here to New Hampshire. That [Interstate] 95. And I remember going to Dartmouth by train that was always a hoot and getting off at White River Junction, Vermont. That was all. I knew I was coming back to Dartmouth when I got off the train.

RUDMAN                  When was the last time you were up in Hanover?

LANDSMARK           Oh, goodness [pause]. I really don't recall. I went back twice. But I didn't make the 50th. I don't recall the years. I can look it up but I remember in my mind's eye, but the virtual that they gave of the new building. Boy, would I like to see that in real life.

RUDMAN                  Yeah, I really like studying there.

LANDSMARK           That that looks like a great place to now park yourself and study.

RUDMAN                  Yeah, definitely.

LANDSMARK           Do you still have the underground tunnels to get from? They don't have that anymore?

RUDMAN                  No, they don't have any underground tunnels, though, I definitely wish there were in the winter especially when it's negative ten degrees out and I have to walk to the Life Science Center for my biology classes.

LANDSMARK           Right. Yeah, nothing like the Choates. The Choates was the coldest place, and those dorms were in the wind. I think they swayed in the wind too, so, but it must be beautiful now, they've built it up quite a bit.

RUDMAN                  Yeah. Well, thank you so much for meeting with me today and sharing all of your experiences. I learned so much and I just really appreciate having the opportunity to speak with you.

LANDSMARK           I'm glad you did. If there's any female senior fellows, tell them to give me a call, I'd like to find out what's happening now. Or did they disband the whole thing?

RUDMAN                  Yeah, absolutely. To my understanding, the senior fellowship still exists, so I'll definitely look into who's currently pursuing it.

LANDSMARK           It was really a male-dominated thing. So, I'd like to know about that. And if you, if there's an editor for the Praxis, I'd love to hear from him or her.

RUDMAN                  Yeah, absolutely.

LANDSMARK           Take care.

RUDMAN                  Thank you so much. Have a great evening.

LANDSMARK           You too. Enjoy. Bye.